The Buffoonish Cluelessness of Katherine Jefferts Schori

Yes she is and I doubt very much that she will ever change…but then I am not God and I am glad of it! But one thing Sarah…regarding this: “TEC bishops and clergy who remain convinced that if they could just win the lawsuits they could re-stock all of those old buildings with Dearly Departed TECans who are currently in ACNA or elsewhere.”
If this was really true then why are they selling said churches they grab from the faithful who worshiped in them to very rich private schools and muslim groups? I am not convinced that they think this nor did they ever really.

Well, if this Presiding Bishop gig doesn’t work out for KJS, I hear they’re working on a remake of “The Wizard of Oz.” She’d be perfect as the Wicked Witch of the West. I can just hear her now: “I’ll get you, my pretty, and your little dog, too!”

I was reading Mathew 28:19 this morning and I did not see in it the destructiveness of cross border episcopal authority. Win souls for Christ and she never acts like that is her job.Apparently her job is “inlcusiveness”.That includes wiccan solstice dancers but no african bishops.The TEC is a faux Christian organization - all form ,no substance. Unless one has a fetish for self destruction I can’t think of a reason one of orthodox faith would send them money.Sooner or later they will use it against you in court.It is a mystery to me why people stay.Pray for them but don’t send them money.

Nice to read someone who isn’t shy about telling the truth.

Also, whenever she mentions “a very ancient teaching of the church”, the appropriate response is to laugh in her face, because that is what you do with a clown.

It is amazing the highly-educated people who follow her, how much mental gymnastics they must do to be able to smile and nod their head in awe of her grace.  I would love to have a few beers with any of our notable blogging liberals, and say “You know she’s a joke, right?...right?...just wink if you know that, ok?”

“The resistance to cross-border interventions is for the reasons I’ve pointed out: it destroys pastoral relationships.”

As others have rightly pointed out, they were already destroyed.

“It prevents any possibility of reconciliation;”

Why? Reconciliation is only prevented if one party is determined that it will not happen. It is clear that most of the leavers have not ruled out reconciliation. Indeed, in many cases they have maintained links with the orthodox stayers. So, who is preventing reconciliation? There’s only one candidate left…

it prevents growth in understanding among people who disagree.

Why?

The idea that one person in one location in the world can adequately understand contexts across the globe and decide policy across the globe, I think contravenes traditional Anglican understanding of local worship in a language understood by the people.

Meaning what, exactly? Is this insinuating that the foreign primates who exercise alternative oversight do not speak English? If it is, then it would be consistent with derogatory comments about foreign bishops previously made by John Spong. As it happens, the foreign bishops generally have higher levels of education (and sometimes greater facility in English) than their opponents in western lands.

This is what we were arguing about 500 years ago.

Yes, this is indeed what we were arguing about during the Protestant Reformation: the concept that God’s truth is more important than church structures. That is precisely what the Reformers stood for, and what the orthodox now stand for. KJS is well-cast in the mould of a Pope opposing reform.

Incidentally, if you go back her “500 years”, relevant Popes included Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia) known for his riotous living, and Julius II who prosecuted a number of wars against fellow christians - interesting connection for KJS!

TLDillon, the reason these buildings are being sold off is because the flocks and herds of dispossessed Episcopalians did not come back to restock them after TEC won the suits.

Yes Fr. Kennedy I know that ...that is why I said I do not think that that is what their thinking is. They (KJS & beers) know that they cannot “re-stock all of those old buildings with Dearly Departed TECans who are currently in ACNA or elsewhere.” I do not think that is their thought.

I think you misunderstood me TLDillon. That was, in fact, their thought in the vast majority of cases, including my own. Only when it proves not to work do they sell.

Sarah, “self-delusion” is an understatement.  Several weeks ago, a band of TEC friends of mine made an open commitment to leave their parish and diocese, and start an ACNA houseplant church.  They were not the victims of wandering African intervening bishops, but were following what they understood as the calling from God—they are quite affirmative about that.  Our TEC bishop was respectful of that decision; even in our liberal diocese we don’t hear this claptrap rhetoric about cross-border interventions obstructing reconciliation, etc. 

A clergy friend of mine transferred out of state, and was interviewed for a position in a rump TEC diocese; the “provisional canon to the provision bishop” told my buddy that as soon as TEC prevailed in the lawsuits, the buildings—and the parishioners!—would return.  Apparently there are folks who seem to believe this.

Fr. Matt and TL- I think you are, in a way, both right.

Clearly, many TEC bishops and probably most of the laity (because this is what they are being told) believe that people will come back and “reconcile” with TEC (known in those circles as the “true church).

But I suspect that insofar as KJS and Beers are concerned, they have no such belief or intention- although they may pretend to as it sounds so much better than “we are in it for the power and money.”  Let’s face it, +Schofield, +Ackerman, +Iker and +Duncan had targets on their backs from the day KJS took office.  She deposed some older retired bishops first in order to establish precedent.  I am sure she says “good riddance” to all of us who have left, and the last thing she wants is any sort of reconciliation.

Examples of the pastoral relationship between myself and TEC.

The bishop (parish meeting): “The people of S Carolina have as much right to choose their own bishop as did the people of N Hampshire.”  Withheld consent on Mark Lawrence.  Twice.

Various standing committee members, 2 dioceses:
“Christo-fascist” (still my favorite, 4 years later)
“Liar”
“Malcontent”

TEC priest (or so he represented himself, so few wear collars now-a-days, but no one disagreed): “You will burn for eternity for rejecting the all inclusive love of Christ” (this one amusing, since the conversation had started as a disagreement over sin, and his insistence that all were saved and would spend eternity in Heaven)

And then, after that, the whole Thew Forrester mess, and let me point out, that he is still running this diocese (through the “episcopal ministry team”), still sending out heresy in the form of his personally composed collects, and distributing non-approved “Inclusive New Testament” and “Inclusive Hebrew Scripture” readings, etc.  No discipline, and his theology forced down the throats of people all over the diocese.

So much for my own relationship with some of the various “pastors” of the last couple dioceses (and certainly the pastors at a diocesan level). Which is not to say there are not many good people in TEC, there are indeed some good people, and clergy and even a few good bishops.  Of course, deposing several personal friends did not help their case, nor declaring all Anglo Catholics to be misogynists and finally making us all canonical outlaws.

We think that TEC sees the building as purely an asset.  Fill it fine, if not, sell it. But do not under any circumstances allow any “competition” to the brand and part of that asset because it would takes away from the attempt of legitimizing the liberal agenda being dressed up in the cloak of Pseudo-Anglicanism.

We all know that even common words are being assigned new meanings.  We need to keep hammering home the real message - of Christ.  That will drown out the false on TEC’s currently selling.  Maybe not as fast as we all would like, but stay the course.

Well the Madame in the Multicolored Mitre (when she’s not required to stash it under her arm) at least admitted that they might be wrong.

TOTALLY Agree #12.

It does seem extraordinary that TEC leadership would believe that parishioners will return once they win the law suits.

That said, I can well believe that both Matt+ and TLDillon are correct.

TEC leadership clearly do not understand the mind and spirit of the orthodox, yet you would think they have seen enough now for the penny to drop - Anglicans worshipping in gyms, private homes, former funeral chapels, whatever is available. And growing. And thriving.

Lakeland Two puts it well:

We need to keep hammering home the real message - of Christ.  That will drown out the false on TEC’s currently selling.  Maybe not as fast as we all would like, but stay the course.

This “war” will be largely won at the parish level - growing congregations are the final argument of the orthodox, one that the liberals cannot match.

I should add, the same applies to us in Australia: we have a prolonged fight against liberalism here. The strongest argument that orthodox evangelical and anglo-catholic congregations can mount is: well-founded and thriving congregations.

#15. We posted about the same time. I agree, eventually (sooner rather than later) TECUSA will disappear due to lack of members and no congregational growth. While the orthodox -regardless of the ‘label’-  will thrive. No doubt in my mind.

Michael A-
I understand that KJS is due in Australia in a few days (on her world tour after New Zealand) to review some of those thriving congregations.  Do let her know the secrets of a successful church.  Or better yet, revoke her passport.

Just curious Tj…is she apologizing for Ameriaca too? ;>)

KJS is merely being true to the precedent to which she alluded. The reason she can play loose (bumble) with authority is because the example set by Henry and the reformers, i.e., the usurpation of authority, allows anyone and their dog to become their own pope. Current issues really do depend on how the question of authority is answered - i.e., by what authority does anyone justify his attempted revision of the received Apostolic Tradition? The answer: there is no legitimate justification for changing, for example, why men only may be ordained, or for attempting to change the nature of marriage, and so on. The only way for such things to be changed is for people to 1) obfuscate, i.e., manipulate the very meaning of words (or theologies) into meaning something different so that opposition to an agenda simply melts into compliance, and/or 2) demonize the opposition and shame others into submission for holding evil opinions (such as God in the Bible condemns homosexual acts and so should we, etc.). Once a revisionist (relativistic) agenda is adopted there is no stopping the damage. KJS, as did Luther on occasion, simply jams her foot in the mouth of anyone who dares to contradict her magisterium.

My heart goes out to those Anglicans who have been made orphans. Furthermore, it must be a terrible slap in the face of faithful Anglicans to have a diocese sue to get control of a parish building back only to sell it to a non-christian or secular organization rather than, at the very least, offer to sell it to a continuing Anglican group at fair market value.

Perhaps she cannot understand that much of the rest of the world cannot acknowledge that she and the immoral bishops are not in Holy Orders and that those who have supported them have made a de facto renunciation of their own orders.

While I cannot agree with those who have left Godly bishops, I’m afraid that there are several dioceses without a TEC bishop at the present time.

Idealogues can easily dismiss the destruction their decisions create.  It’s all about the idea.  Never mind that it can’t actually work, they do these things to propel their ideas into action.  Carnage along the way?  Well, somebody’s gotta pay.

There is no common sense to it.  Destroy the institution while making it fit your bubble-headed ideas. 

I read an article recently on young working people.  They are much different than their parents.  They live simply, save, and watch their costs.  They are very suspicious of “leaders” of political movements, and in general.  Sounds like just the people we need to throw these aging hippies out.

She DOES get it.  She is a liar.  She knows darn well the border crossings happened in response to revisionist teachings.  This is simply manipulation.  DO NOT BELIEVE THIS LIE.

Let me add that she is doing the work of one who comes to “lie, steal and DESTROY”.  They know that the buildings will never be full; it’s not about that - it’s about the destruction by Satan of the church.

MichaelA #6 nails it down tightly with his well argued fisk above.

Executive summary:  For the past 50 or so years, adherents to the foreign/false/clueless gospels of revisionism have set about destroying Christ’s Church. Dr. Jefferts Schori is attempting to promulgate such a gospel.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew 16:18&version=ESV

I think the TEC litigation strategy is aimed not so much at re-stocking the churches, but at financially crippling their brand competition.

BTW, to all you lawyers, Happy Feast Day of St. Thomas More.  May we “merrily meet in heaven.”

Phil Swain you win the washer and dryer. But in our case in San Joaquin it has not worked…..oh let me correct that…it has worked in the reverse. Lamb is on the TEc mission string and is asking for more assistance with a $125,000 loan that is coming due really soon. Us…..we are just doing the work and planting the churches as God has instructed the faithful to do.

Yeah, name one cross-border intervention that happened prior to SSBs and Gene Robinson.  TEC fired the first shot, and now they’re complaining that the other side’s defending itself.  It’s so ... unfair!

I wish just once KJS would talk about winning souls for Christ. Not inclusiveness,not social justice,not the enviorment,not property lawsuits,not cross border interventions,not same gender issues,not abortion rights,not oil spills,not left wing political cause of the day - just win souls for Christ.I do not study KJS’ speech but I do not recall her talking about her mission -  win souls. Why not?

sic transit gloria mundi…..
You are kidding right? 
She does not talk about it because it is foreign to her…it is not on her agenda…..she thinks that there are many ways to God so it is not her job.

KJS is making some great arguments that could construct a repudiation of the Dennis Canon.  Good for her!

Well Sarah,
I’ll have to disagree with your final premise. I don’t think KJS is self-deluded or blinded to reality. You see, that would imply a sort of mental illness. And I think mentally ill people should be cut a bit a slack for their actions, because they really don’t have control of all their faculties. It’s an illness like any other, and should be treated with care, sympathy and understanding.
No. Instead what we have with KJS is pure unadulterated lying and evil. She knows exactly what she is doing. She will say and do anything to promote her agenda. We’ve seen in the past when cornered in her lies the discomfort and struggle she has with maintaining that face of true “belief”. If she were deluded, there would be no struggle, because she would truly believe the BS she puts out. She knows she lying, even though I’m sure she wishes she wasn’t, to keep the agenda of TEC on course.

St. Anonymous, AMiA actually predates +VGR.  I’m not sure if any congregations tried to leave with property to AMiA prior to VGR, but AMiA was formed before +VGR was consecrated bishop.

However AMiA was formed in response to the +Righter trial where +Righter was acquited of violating the doctrine and discipline of TEC for ordaining a practicing homosexual (Barry Stopfel).  The trial court held that homosexuality was not part of that patristic term “Core Doctrine” (/sarcasm). 

Remember, this does not start with +VGR, but the international response started after the Righter Trial and then expanded after +VGR.

YBIC,
Phil Snyder

tjmcmahon at #18

I understand that KJS is due in Australia in a few days (on her world tour after New Zealand) to review some of those thriving congregations.  Do let her know the secrets of a successful church.  Or better yet, revoke her passport.

Thanks for the tip-off, tj. I cannot find anyone down here who knows when she is coming or where.

Its a pretty safe bet that we won’t see her in Sydney Diocese (she’s not listed on the board at St Andrews Cathedral for a cozy lunchtime seminar with the Archbishop’s shy and retiring brother Phil - there’s a vivid thought)

What is more interesting is that most of the other 22 dioceses are openly liberal, yet they don’t seem to be saying anything either.

What a mystery! I shan’t sleep tonight for wondering…

Here is an interesting headline about Schori in New Zealand:

Cathedral off pro-gay US bishop’s itinerary

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3837331/Cathedral-off-pro-gay-US-bishops-itinerary

I am pretty sure that a couple days ago, the Cathedral WAS on her itinerary, but I am not her social secretary, so I am not sure.

It is interesting to note that even Episcopal Life is not paying much attention to her globe trotting, at least not as of when I checked 2 minutes ago.  I wonder if ++RW made a call to his old friends +Victoria Matthews and ++Philip Aspinall?

Phil Snyder at #34 is correct. The issue of “border crossings” arose at almost exactly the same time as the separation of the “continuum” churches, and the catalyst was the same: the open embrace of liberal apostasy by a number of leading church figures in the western Anglican churches in the late 1970s.

So far as I am aware, the first “boundary crossing” in North America was by +John Rucyahana in 1998, i.e. two years after the Righter trial, and one year after the convention of St Louis. At the time he was bishop of Shyira diocese in Rwanda. He had a long connection with the US, graduated from TESM in the 1980s.

The situation was a little murky - I believe the church in Little Rock Arkansas was not an official ECUSA church plant anyway, so some would argue this was a different situation. Anyway, the pastor (I don’t recall his name) was an ECUSA priest and the liberal bishop of Arkansas was going to depose him. So the pastor became a priest in the province of Rwanda instead. He didn’t have to do that of course, he could have gone to the continuum or just gone non-denominational, but he and his congregation decided to take a stand within mainstream anglicanism.

A few months later at Lambeth 98, +++Carey personally urged +Rucyahana to withdraw from the oversight, however ++Kolini of Rwanda supported his bishop and Carey as ABC did not press the point. In particular, he did not seek a resolution from the Lambeth Conference.

The reasons why he did not are interesting: Carey was facing almost open revolt by the “Global South” at Lambeth, but I also suspect that PB Griswold asked Carey not to force the issue - the American “continuum” churches had only separated from ECUSA the previous year and everyone at the top, including Carey and Griswold thought it best to contain the situation rather than inflame it.

They were wrong, of course - two years later ++Kolini and ++Tay of SE Asia consecrated bishops for what would become AMIA, and the serious invasion began.

Is the precedent for border crossing “Come over to Macedonia and help us!”? Or did Kolini just notice that things were tough in “Macedonia” and come unbidden?  Just wondering.
Frances Scott

Michael A-
Continuing churches first separated after the Affirmation of St. Louis and the 1976 convention, over women’s ordination.  There was indeed a spate of TEC churches leaving for the Continuum in the 1990’s, in response to the consecration of Barbara Harris, Righter’s ordination of openly gay candidates, Spong and a variety of other issues, but it was well established by then.  Bishop Chambers, who had been my Dad’s bishop, and confirmed me, was censured by the HoB for consecrating Continuing bishops in the 1970s.

For the whole scoop on the AMiA, see NEVER SILENT by Thaddeus Barnum.

http://www.amazon.com/Never-Silent-Thaddeus-Barnum/dp/0615206948/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277259814&sr=8-1

The short version is that intervention was sought because of the situation in ARKANSAS.  It is a fascinating story and well worth the reading.

I visited an Episcopal church in Philadelphia last week for a men’s Bible study.  I told them I was from an Anglican church, which quickly became the elephant in the room.  The lesson was around Paul’s discussion around what is and is not important, but also that we shouldn’t do things that make our brother stumble (who says God doesn’t have a sense of humor?)

I made no bones about my position - that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God; that the Holy Spirit will not be doing “new things” outside of Holy Scripture; and that the Bible clearly defines homosexual behavior as being sin.

They were very gracious and we all discussed the issue, though the priest about came out of his chair. 

I don’t think I changed anyone’s mind…but all we can do is express the truth in love - it’s really up to the Holy Spirit to convict their hearts. 

In an email back from one of the guys I could tell he had the impression that our church was very “fenced in”; I wrote him back and told him that actually it is a church where the broken come to be healed.  I think that many of the revisionist churches really believe they are more “compassionate”, and that those of us who reject homosexual behavior as “normal” are somehow more judgemental.  Not the truth - another way they are deceived.

It was an eye-opening experience.

B. Hunter, I’d say that, in sum, the problem with many attendees is that they want reconciliation WITHOUT repentance, which completely flies in the face of Christian doctrine.  They also refuse to see that they are either starting a new religion or hijacking a religion.  But, it’s a lot less painful to believe that humans are sinless and a free-for-all is ok with God and everybody. 

DUH